So here's a question for you.....
I am in the middle of an "argument" on an etiquette board that I frequent. While I do tend to get my back up when people are rude, I also believe that there are times and places where insisting on sticking to the "Emily Post way" can be ruder than not (if that makes any sense).
One area where I think that is true is when it comes to family, and that is what this argument is about. While I agree that it IS an etiquette board and in the strictest sense of etiquette, what happened was rude, I also think that the fact that it is involving family means that a certain amount of "slack" should be given. (oh - and if anyone from that Board has followed my link to this blog, I am not talking about you people behind your back....I am looking for opinions from people who are not the etiquette "mavens" and perhaps aren't such sticklers for etiquette that they spend time on an etiquette board)
So here's the situation...and I would love to know what some of my "Bloggy friends" think:
A woman invited her parents and her in-laws over for dinner on Easter Sunday. She also has a semi-single 20-year old sister (it seems the sister likes to boyfriend-hop. She has been dating the current one for about a month). The family has never made a big deal about holiday dinners together and in fact, the woman spent many Easters alone while in college. The younger sister, however, seems to be the favorite child and has been very spoiled/indulged by the parents. The woman is understandably pissed off about this unfair treatment.
When the invitation was extended to her mother for Easter Dinner, the mom basically said "you invited your sister as well, didn't you?". The woman said "no - just you and my in-laws". Mom said "oh - your sister can't be alone on Easter". A few days later, the woman was told by the mom that she had invited her sister and her boyfriend
Now - in my family, this would be no big deal because:
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the immediate family is invited to any holiday dinner. period. the end
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despite the fact the 3 children all argue that mom loves them better and let them get away with more as children/teens, we are still family and since nobody has killed another's child or stolen another's identity, we all get along and are family. (although my ex-stepfather did steal my brother/his son's identity about 8 years ago, but that dickwad was long ago banned from our family dinners, although my brother has since made up with him)
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Seating may be an issue, but we are more concerned with being together than if we have to throw a tablecloth over a card table and use "everyday" flatware because we don't have 18 place settings of the good silver
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when a meal starts getting expensive, my family has no problem calling one another and saying "hey - I'm not made of money - you bring the wine/cheescake/broccoli salad/whatever my sister doesn't have time to buy or make.
Now regardless, it is rude for a guest to invite other people to a hosted dinner....nobody should debate that.
However, when it is a holiday and it is your mother inviting your sister...would you think it is still as rude?
I can't imagine getting pissed off at my mother for inviting my sister to a holiday dinner "behind my back" (although the truth is, my sister is always the host...mainly because she has a double-oven and is the best cook)
Then again, I can't imagine not inviting my sister in the first place.
One person in that forum suggested that/asked if I was just used to my family "walking all over me" and that was the reason it wouldn't bother me. My response to that was "what an interesting assumption" (which is that forum's equivalent of "fuck you!").
What do you say? Was it rude? Was it rude, but not that horrible seeing as it is family and a holiday? Was it not rude at all?
I'd love to know what you think!
(oh - and I'm still working on that grocery shopping post....I promise!)
bookbabie
We host most family dinners and don't formally invite anyone really. If the family dinner is here, everyone is invited. Isn't that the point of a holiday family meal, to all get together and annoy one another;)
that certainly is how it works in our family! - Mindi
awalkabout
While I agree that's how we run our family dinners, kind of a general "hey we're having everyone on such and such day, bring the X kind of food," I would be significantly annoyed and hurt if one of my guests invited persons I had specifically not invited to a dinner I was hosting.
I think my conversation would have then gone like this: "You know what, if you want to have little sister join you for dinner, why don't you have dinner at your house. What time would you like me to come?" and then have a separate dinner for the respectful in-laws later. My two cents. Good luck!
I guess I look at it as a "holiday dinner" and that families aren't "allowed" to exclude immediate family from holiday dinners. I know that I am projecting my own family dyanmic on others, which probably isn't fair. I just can't imagine not WANTING to invite the whol fam! - Mindi
Tiffani
I don't think it was rude at all. I think it was rude not to invite the sister in the first place. But that is how my family and I are. My whole family goes over to my in laws house. and all my husbands family too. My MIL and FIL host the holiday for the enitre family. both sides. so that the whole family can be together every holiday. so to me, it was rude not to invite the sister.
Sounds like your family is like mine. I've just always assumed that all families were like that. What I have learned through this is that it isn't always that way. Frankly, I feel sorry for people who don't have that kind of relationship with their parents/siblings (and I know saying that might get me flamed, but it's my blog and I'll say it if I want to! 😉 - Mindi
Sister Honey Bunch
I can't imagine NOT including a sibling to a holiday or family dinner. However, if I did choose to not invite a sister or brother it would probably be for a good reason. If my mom chose to issue an invitation I would be annoyed but would just deal with it anyway. Family is family is family.
- that's how I feel! Now, there is another person on that board who said that she has the kind of relationship with her brother that if she sees him in her neighborhood, she is calling the police. In that case, I can see not inviting him for dinner. However, my sister has a nicer house, a better job and much cuter shoes than me. There's a little jealousy there. But she's still family and I'd kill anyone who tried to hurt her! - Mindi
lisamm
Rude, yes. Absolutely. The mom already asked if the sister was invited and was told no. She then took it upon herself to invite her. That, IMO, was out of line. I like awalkabout's suggestion of saying, if you want to have little sis join you for dinnner, invite her to your house.
That said, this would never ever happen in my family, because we throw the doors open at holiday times. Come one, come all, and bring a dish to share.. don't sit around waiting for your engraved invitation cuz it isn't coming.
- I agree that, by all rules of etiquette it was rude. A guest just does NOT invite other people without explicit permission. However, it's one of those situations where I think NOT inviting the sister to a holiday dinner in the first place was rude. Her mom just took it upon herself to correct her daughter's rudeness. Although in doing that, she treated her grown daughter as a child, which is also rude.
We don't have invitations as well. Matter of fact, my sister has always hosted Easter. I found out last month that Brad has to work on Easter Sunday and we won't be able to make it there (she's 2 hours away and I don't want to go there by myself. Besides, he doesn't have to be at work until noon and if we spent the morning at home and then I drove down, it would be "drive 2 hours, be there for 4 hours, drive 2 hours home, get the kids in bed because they have school on Monday. It's too much for just one day). But anyway, before I was even "invited" to dinner I told her we couldn't make it this year. I guess I was rude for "assuming" the invitation - Mindi
Sandy (Momisodes)
In my family, this would not be an issue. If it were my SIL, I can see this happening. I think it was rude. I'm with lisamm, the mom asked, and the was told no. If I clearly have a stressed relationship with someone, I believe it is my choice on who I would like to invite into my home.
Very interesting topic!
Sandy (Momisodes)
Oh, and I've blogrolled you 🙂
Daisy
I'll be back later to comment on the post at hand, but I thought I would thank you for the nice comment on my nails. They are gel nails - this means they are stupid proof and I can not chip them - hard to explain - three different colors of gel are use to make them - they are a little expensive to get but so very hardy - my natural nails are very brittle and thin - horrible. My whole family has nails like this. The gel nails I get an one of those Asian nail joints - refill every two weeks. I figure I don't smoke, I don't have any expensive hobbies - I can afford to spluge on my nails. Oh - and they don't feel tight like acrylics do and they don't smell bad - I think that's it...:D Thanks again - I shall return. DOn't say I didn't warn you.
BreadBox
Mindi, you've completely missed the point of the OP's at the etiquette board's post and that you're omitting from this blog:
She is simply NOT SET UP for BIG FAMILY DINNERS.
Why can't someone just invite a small number of people and not have to hang the doors open?
I would be livid if someone did this to me.
It's hard to be a perfect hostess and create the perfect tablescape, when one has to add a card table and folding chairs to the mix. Kind of like putting a bow on a pig, but what's the point?
Why doesn't Little Sister and New Boyfriend just go to the BOYFRIEND's house? Don't they celebrate Easter, if that's what is bothering you that much... that because the OP is having a dinner on easter, you automatically assume that it's a big HOLIDAY dinner.
Whatever happened to wanting just a few people at one's home? I remember BIG HOLIDAY DINNERs at our house. Everyone sat down to a big meal... aunts, uncles, cousins, etc, while the cook and hostess had to be getting up and down for this one and that one, and never got to enjoy sitting at the table with her GUESTS, because she was just so overwhelmed.
I'm not registered at "that site" so I can't comment there, but if I was the OP, I would uninvite the IL's, explaining the situation. They seem like reasonable people and will probably understand their daughter in law not wanting to host a huge bash in her and their son's SMALL apartment.
Then I'd serve up some mac and cheese for Mom, Sister and Boyfriend. Maybe a margarita or two so Sis can expound on her wonderful vacation in mexico that Sis was never told about because Mom said, "We knew you'd be angry".
Tara R.
I have a strained relationship with my own brother, if I chose not to invite him and his date du jour to dinner... that should be my decision. I would consider it rude if my mom were to issue an invitation to MY HOME to someone I explicited told her I had not invited, family or no.
Mindi
I have to leave to take my son to CCD, but I wantedt o say this in quick reply to Breadbox (I'll respond to everyone else later tonight):
while she mentioned the card table, it is not a matter of not being able to set a place for 2 more people. It would be cramped and crowded, but do-able (especially if she sticks sis & boyfriend at the card table or sofa)
It's a matter of her not wanting to accomodate her sister beause of her intense jealousy that she has for her sister.
Nothing in what she said indicates that the sister has actually done anything to HER...just that she resents the fact that her parents have turned her sister in to a spoiled brat who can take vacations in Mexico while the OP is stuck in a crappy small apartment.
And the OP is describing it as a Easter Dinner (as opposed to "a small dinner party on a random night"). It's not me that said that it was a Holiday Dinner....it's the OP
Queen Mommy
Tisk, tisk - rude to invite someone as an invitee. However, we have become so very informal these days that it is hard to distinguish. Family or not, rude.
I could go on and on and ON!
Allison
I invited my parents to my house for Mother's Day several years ago. We were just starting to eat dessert when my brother and one of his daughters showed up. Apparently, my mom had invited them without telling me. My main concern was that we barely had enough dessert and thank goodness they didn't show up for supper b/c there wouldn't have been enough food...I apparently did not inherit the "cook for an army" gene.
I did not get upset by this and I didn't spend hours brewing over if it's rude. That's just how my mom is...she doesn't want anybody left out on a holiday and I'm sure that she was very happy to celebrate Mother's Day with both of her children.
My brother has a major history of being unreliable. It's a 50/50 chance of him showing up if he said he would and a 100% chance that he will show up extremely late. So...even if Mom had told me, I probably would have played an odds game that he wasn't going to show. Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that when he does actually show, he and his daughters have usually eaten at some place fancy like Taco Bell before Thanksgiving dinner. So that really confirms that I wouldn't have changed my cooking behaviors had I known.
It may sound like I'm annoyed by it, but I'm really so accustomed to it that I am just pleasantly surprised if he shows up. He's 37, so I don't think he's going to change his spots now. My family never waits for him to show up before eating. We've learned.
Anyway, back to your original question. I think it's probably a little tacky to invite people without your permission, but if it's your mother and she didn't keep you in a crate for 15 years, then you should get over it. And what's wrong with a 20-year old being a boyfriend hopper?
BreadBox
Mindi, did you ever think that maybe there's a good reason she's not hog wild over her sister? I have a brother I haven't seen in yearrrssssss and if I never see him again, I won't be annoyed at all. He is the one that wrote myself, my mom, and my brother off.
Last year, my brother (the one I talk to) flew my mom in from the West Coast. He shuttled her around all week so she could visit her sisters in various places. This brother paid for gas, food, all the extras, with a smile on his face.
While they were in the town of mom's one sister, they were planning a dinner at a restaurant.
For some reason, Mom (who recently kinda-sorta rekindled her relationship with bad brother, only because he got a mail order bride wife that keeps him in line) invited this brother to the dinner, which was supposed to be hosting brother's wife adn family, along with Mom's sister and brother in law.
Brother was livid. He spoke three words the entire time to other brother. Tensions were running high.
Luckily the hosting brother doesn't have borderline personality disorder like other brother, so he was able to keep things cool. But still, JUST BECAUSE mom and brotehr were in the same town as other brother, doesn't mean mom should take this as her opportunity to have everyone make friends (and really, other brother is a jerk of the highest order that has caused problems on holidays, you know, HOLY HIGH HOLIDAYS, that had everyone's ulcers bleeding.)
And if sis is going off about how new boyfriend is "the one", don't you think she'll make this dinner on a "holiday" all about her and the new "one"? Maybe the OP just wanted a nice, small dinner with her inlaws, you know, to maybe show off her culinary skills along with some of the items she got from her wedding shower. But yea, Lenox candle holders will look just fine on a card table, I'm sure. The OP's "just parents" dinner is going to turn into one big long attention whoring event by the sister for everyone to notice that she has another "the one".
I understand that you see every holiday as a reason to swing wide the doors to your ancestral plantation and have as many as can fit at the table. The OP does not have a large space to entertain. Why is that so hard to figure out? And so WHAT if she doesn't like her coddled and pampered sister? Her house, her rules. The OP is the "mama" now, and you know how that saying goes about when mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy.
But I guess if the sister is happy, then you're happy. Whatever.
Mindi
NOW I really am running out the door but just one thing to Breadbox (and to anyone else who might come over from that forum while i am gone the next few hours).
Disagree with me all you want here. That's no problem. Some of my "Bloggy friends" have already disagreed with me and that's perfectly fine.
But if you can't do it without strapping on the Bitch-O-Matic (like cracks about my "ancestral plantation" and your final sentence), your ass will be deleted.
It is possible to disagree without being disagreeable. Try it
Daisy
I would say the hostess should not worry about how rude it was for her mother to invite her sister (it WAS) and focus on what she must have said to herself to make her think it was okay to exclude her sister in the first place.
Whatever little point she was trying to make would have little merit if she never had the chance to see her sister again, now would it? The future is promised to no one. People should remember that more often.
If she wants to split hairs, it was definitely rude for her mother to invite her sister. no argument there. It seems ironic that someone with such little couth would give a damn about etiquette.
Oh and BTW - an etiquette board?? Are you a glutton for punishment, Min?
Daisy
I've read a little more - and I see - the problem is SPACE?? Two additional people is too many? Your sister and a friend can't be invited to your Easter dinner because it precludes your ability to have a proper "tablescape"? Who are you - Martha Stewart??
Sure doesn't sound very christian to me. Isn't familial love supposed to be more important than one's tablescape (sorry - that term amuses the shit out of me)? If you proudly wave those palms on Palm Sunday and sing Hosanna in the Highest on Easter Sunday - shouldn't your own sister have a place in your heart and at your table? Even a heathen like me knows that.
Sorry - but this whole scenario is just ludicrous to me. I can't wrap my brain around the original premise that so many seem to accept so willingly. Maybe the parents pamper the younger sister so much because they can see that their poor treatment of the older sister has - well - let's be kind - not worked out so well for her.
Good luck with this etiquette board, Min - sounds like you have your hands full there.
Peace.
Mr Lady
Technically, no, it wasn't rude. You said it yourself, your sister was just openly invited. But when you told your mother NO, she hadn't been invited, and then she told you that YES, she was after all, now that was straight up bitchy. (can I say that here?)
Are you 8 years old? Really?
I'd totally say something to your mom. Not about your sister, but about you, um, being an ADULT and stuff.
lisamm
Mindi, if I were you I would get myself the f*ck off that etiquette board, because it doesn't sound like they play nice over there. Where ARE there manners, anyway?
Addy
Another fact that you omitted was that her husband has a brother who has a wife, and I believe, children. So where do you draw the line? Why is it horrible to exclude the sister of one of the couple, but it's ok to exclude the brother of the other part of the couple? There comes a point where a lack of space does come into play.
Also, to Daisy, I'm not sure if the original poster stated that she was a Christian or not, so I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. She specifically said she does not go to church on Easter, so she might just be as heathen as you are. 😉
Honestly, I've had times when I've wanted to entertain only certain members of my family, and there are certain members of my family that I would be happy to never have darken my door again. It really is my call as to who gets an invitation.
Daisy
You make a solid point, Addy. How ABSURD of me to assume that since one is having Easter Dinner one is a christian. But you know - it is just good common sense to keep your heart open when it comes to your family.
As far as the husband's family is concerned, you are right. They should be included as well. So my general thinking is that if you have an apartment you aren't equipped to host a Holiday Dinner. You want to have a small dinner party for just your parents, do it some other day.
Ever hear of passive aggressive behavior? Methinks the whole idea of hosting a holiday dinner when you are clearly not equipped to do so is bad manners. Hiding behind the whole "wahhhh - we don't have enough room" thing is just an excuse to purposely exclude the younger more spoiled sibling. And I wouldn't think it a stretch that it was the expectation on some level all along that mom would invite sis, thus allowing the party in question to have an excuse to act like a self-righteous toddler. "Poor me! All I wanted to do was have a pretty table and show off my WEDDING gifts and Mumsy ruined it all by inviting my spoiled slutty sister".
I'll say it again. The future is promised to no one. Horrible unexpected things happen all the time to the people in our lives and we don't know when we will never see them again.
What's that?? You don't CARE if you never see them again? Awesome. That just speaks volumes about you then, doesn't it?
Patty McVamperson
Well, I have to add my two cents here. Yes, it's true that this woman's mom should have said to her "would it be ok to invite your sister and her boyfriend?". That being said, truth be told, knowing her sister would have been alone and hearing her mother's question, she should have opened her heart to her mother's plea and said "I hadn't expected to invite them but if it would make you happy, I will do so." I have 6 brothers and sisters of whom I rarely speak to because of (a) religious differences/opinions and (b) geographically it would be impossible to converse without $1,000 phone bills every month. That being said, regardless of differences, dislikes, problems or whatever (believe me there are some that do not like each other AT ALL), we would never let each other be isolated from a family gathering. When it comes to our mother, we would always want to see her happy and will let petty differences of "she loves you more" stray to the side. From what my understanding of what I'm reading, the woman's sister has not done anything really wrong to her other than to accept spoiling from her mother (um, and tell me who wouldn't?). It's really unfortunate that this woman is focusing on how she is being "wronged". Has SHE ever been alone on holidays? Or better yet, has she thought that maybe her sister has stayed away because she senses that the "unwelcome" mat will be waiting for her? I don't know this woman from a hole in the wall, but I will tell you this, it's not a case of letting people "walk all over you". She sounds angry at her sister because of the attention her mother gives her sister...I truly believe that she doesn't even realize that she is trying to hurt her own mother because of it; if she doesn't start opening up her heart and letting go of her jealousy, she will be the one to end up alone. The meaning of Easter is that Jesus had to die and shed His blood so we could be brought back into relationship with God. He was the final sacrifice for us. Would it be so terrible to make a "sacrifice" of two more mouths to feed to appease her mother and help to heal her own aching heart?
Anonymous
I am posting as anonymous for a reason. Mindi, I left a very clear record of WHO I am based on my e-mail address. The reason for that is, I am a woman to WAS left out of EVERY SINGLE holiday season for 15 solid years.
Restoration has begun (i.e. they have contacted me and asked for forgiveness and restoration). I don't want this post to interfere with THAT part of my life.
That being said, I can PERSONALLY tell you, it is INCREDIBLY hurtful to be left out (because, yes they said I was SPOILED, YES, EXACT WORDS). Now, I'm a grown woman with my own family and have moved on (albeit with a LOT of hurt from just these actions we are discussing here).
My life was altered forever because of the way these people treated me. I am a stronger person, but not stronger in a way that was "much fun" gettin there if ya know what I mean. The healing I have yet to go through is immense - and no it isn't just because I wasn't invited to an event - we ALL KNOW it is never about the "event" --- there's always that underlying judgment of the person for the cause of their action of inviting or not inviting - and THAT is what hurts and will stay with you FOREVER.
Thank you Mindi for letting me post this (if this post does infact go through). It is the last time I discuss this on here - but I thought SOMEONE needed to hear from "THE SPOILED ONE" and what the actions of others do to them deep in their soul.
vampireslayer1
Dear Anonymous:
That really svks and I'm sorry you had to go through that. I am so glad you posted because it validates that those who are considered the "spoiled ones", often are the ones who have to go through hurts because of judgements in situations that they have no control over. It is with great hope that your heart will be able to heal from it's hurts.
Addy
Daisy, I think in fact, that was one of the OP's points, that her family did not celebrate Easter and so it was really just another day to her.
Daisy
If you present something as an "Easter Dinner" it is NOT just another dinner. Also - it is obviously not just another day to her family otherwise her mother wouldn't have said anything about her sister being alone on Easter.
Maybe said OP needs a shirt that says "It really IS all about me" since that seems to be her point, that she can control SOMETHING and her sister will systematically be deprived of the supreme joy of basking in her sister's wedded bliss - oh yeah, and her kick-ass tablescape. Ha Ha - NaNaNee poopers. YOU got to go to HI but you are still a slut - I am married, I got all this cool stuff and a pretty table and you only get to hear about it second hand.
And she'd have gotten away with it too if not for her meddling mother - mwahhhhh.
Problem is, if you have a very tiny heart like the grinch you lead a very small bitter life. Maybe she missed that part of the movie. I don't know. I would hope that she would find a way to open her heart to her sister. This isn't a dress rehearsal, there are no do-overs. Every day is the opportunity for grace realized. I hope that some day - preferably sooner rather than later, she can learn that.
Say What?
On a totally different thought: after going to the site and reading the messages, I got the feeling that "they" think you were rude because you weren't agreeing with all of "them" and their way of thinking.
Nice etiquette site: We will treat you with respect...as long as you agree with us!